NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

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NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ralph »

Drum wrote:
In fact no NPC will ever have to pay for rarity costs.
I'm not necessarily objecting, but I'm curious why this is, for local NPCs who have full stats?

(Edited to add: I know that this is more of a staff philosophy thing than a system thing, but I'm kind of surprised to hear that our game emphasizes the "specialness" of NPCs over that of PCs, and I figure you probably have well considered reasons for this.)
I apologize that I haven't responded to this before now. However, rather than continue this in the BNS system stuff, this is really more a Game Craft discussion. Hence I wanted to put this in Perspectives on Storytelling.

As with all PoS, I encourage response and debate.

This is my opinion.

****************

The answer is fairly direct - NPCs are not PCs.

NPCs do not enjoy many of the benefits that characters do. They are (generally) intended to lose. They do not (generally) improve with XP, and they are the background against which the stars of our game (the PCs) play against.

They do not conform to the same rules as PCs in many respects. This is one of those respects. This has been true in most RPGs since the beginning of the medium, and it is simply not different here.

Our setting document, with the choices we have made for Clan and Path Rarity, are applicable to the stars of the story we want to tell. We are trying to tell a story about primarily Camarilla characters set in a world where there are allies and opponents who are not always the same as them.

As storyteller and staff, we have been given your trust to help craft a narrative that you will enjoy. You have implicitly asked us to challenge you, occasionally beat you, mostly lose to you, and generally allow you to experience a great deal of mental and emotional contexts through the medium of this LARP.

There are no rules on how much XP I can give an NPC. Indeed - there are no rules on what clans I am allowed to use. We use clans that are not available to PC characters with some regularity (Baali?) to tell our stories. Heck we use entire types of characters that are not available to PCs. (Werewolves?)

This is not a competition between player and staff. As Storyteller, I literally control the universe - If I wanted to 'win' I could just roll a 1000xp (or way more) vampire with every discipline at All Elder levels through. That's not a very good story for anyone.

As a practical matter, most of the NPCs we create are designed to eventually lose, or die, or fail. Take the recent werewolves. As a practical matter of the game, eventually the PCs HAD to win. Otherwise, the game is over. We designed, from the very begining, that the werewolves would be beaten.

Why don't NPCs have to pay rarity costs or Path costs? Because I want Sabbat villains to be viable characters. I want Anarchs to be threats. I might occasionally want them to have merits in the system.

Take for example Forseti. For those of you who do not know, Forseti is one of the Bishops of Santa Cruz. He is an Elder. He is powerful. He is Lasombra, on the Path of Power and the Inner Voice. He also has a number of Merits and Flaws.

Now, our setting document does not allow for Lasombra at all, but even if I were to presume that they were the same cost as Lasombra Antitribu, that would mean that Forseti would spend 7 points on Clan and Path - as would most Lasombra Sabbat, ever. This leaves no room for my NPCs to explore some of the merits available to them, so as to challenge the PCs in a different way.

NPCs are not the same things as PCs. They do not have the same rules in many places.

You have decided to trust me, and my staff, with the power to tell you nuanced stories. You have asked me to create characters that will give you challenges. You have implied to me through regular attendance (and frankly, not asking me to step down in favor of someone else) that you want to hear my stories, and that you trust my ability to provide you a fair challenge.

My rules are different than yours.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Capet »

I would have a least 9 out of 10 portrayed NPCs obey the merit cap (or their own Sabbat or Anarch merit cap system).
Merit caps are basically 'special points', it makes the PC's 'special points' less special when NPCs have twice as many.

It's more about keeping rare things rare than power level.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Drum »

Ultimately, you're the GM, Ralph, so your rules are the rules, but I agree with Paul here.

My sense is that merit points reflect "specialness" (I've heard and seen you use that particular word multiple times), and that being a rare clan or path is considered a type of "special", and I don't have any particular objection to that mechanic. However, knowing that merits are the "specialness" basket, and that PCs *simply cannot be as special as NPCs* honestly damages my interest in and enthusiasm for the game. What's fun about playing in a universe where heroic qualities are concentrated among NPCs, where PCs so clearly only succeed at the unvarnished sufferance of the storytellers, without any coherent law or truth to the setting in which they exist?

I trust you to tell a good story, but I also trust that there's some kind of meaning to throwing numbers on a sheet and throwing chops and spending experience, that this is a part of the experience of collaboratively building a universe. I don't care about winning; I mean, you know me, I'd rather lose. By all means, load heaps of xp on NPCs and make them godlike forces to be reckoned with, but I wish you wouldn't make them something the PCs can literally never hope to become in any far-flung future. That's an ambition killer for the long game.

I don't think that Anarch or Sabbat NPCs should have to be built for a Cam merit cap, but surely there are faction-appropriate caps and costs they could follow? My original question specified local (and fully stat built) NPCs, by which I meant those who live in the domain and are part of the sect, but I know that BNS offers different clan and path costs according to sect, or that could be adjusted by region for non-locals.

I have zero opinion about non-vampire NPCs in BNS. I don't know how they're supposed to work, and I certainly don't care if it's substantially different than the way vampire characters work. I'm never going to play a character who dreams of becoming a werewolf the way she might dream of becoming a prince or an archon, or who is at risk of defecting to the fae in the way she might be at risk of defecting to the Sabbat, for whom those things should be reasonable goals or paths, even if it's outside the scope of this game's duration.

I get that this is a bit rambly, sorry. The point is, I don't want to win, I just don't want to feel like my characters can literally never hope to measure up to NPCs in terms of unique qualities and power, like my fellow PCs and I are essentially weird limited throwbacks in a world with a *very different and fundamentally incomprehensible rules set* than that which governs us, and like it's always going to be smarter for me to turn to NPCs rather than PCs for special skills and qualities.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

To confirm I'm hearing what people are saying:

* You don't mind if the NPCs who are Sabbat pay Sabbat prices (i.e. low path cost, low-or-no clan rarity cost) but you want NPCs to obey the 7-point merit cap wherever they are from.

* You also want NPCs who are local Camarilla members to pay the local path and rarity costs.

I can't speak to all the NPCs, partly because we've not converted them all yet. But the ones I HAVE seen all follow the 7-point cap. I know that when we've discussed it, we've worked to find the best 7-point combination of merits.

In fact, I don't believe staff has ever said that NPCs don't follow the 7-point cap, only that they don't pay rarity cost.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

Also, just so we're all on the same page:

Here are the official setting documents, straight from the book. The Camarilla documents are not exactly the same as what we use, because we altered it for BAM. But it gives a guideline for what you might expect Sabbat or Anarchs to pay for their path or clan:
BAM Rarity
Camarilla Setting Merits & Flaws, Camarilla Rarity
Anarch Setting Merits & Flaws
Sabbat Setting Merits & Flaws
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Capet »

* You don't mind if the NPCs who are Sabbat pay Sabbat prices (i.e. low path cost, low-or-no clan rarity cost) but you want NPCs to obey the 7-point merit cap wherever they are from.
I would instead say different rarity costs. Anarch NPCs have to pay high rarity costs to be a Tremere. Sabbat have to pay high rarity costs to be Ventrue. etc.
Last edited by Capet on Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:00 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

You're right that I hadn't considered in my example a Tremere Anarch or Ventrue Sabbat... but I did note: "Sabbat pay Sabbat prices."
Leveque wrote:I would instead say different rarity costs. Anarch NPCs have to pay high rarity costs to be a Tremere. Sabbat have to pay high rarity costs to be Ventrue. etc.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Drum »

Ginger, I think you have summarized accurately.

I think the concern over ignoring the merit cap entirely comes from this statment (from the other thread): "NPCs do not need to follow the rules of the setting document." If that's not a concern, great!

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

Ah! The setting document is just variations on the core rules, which add or subtract sect-specific merits and flaws, increase or decrease clan & bloodline rarity costs, etc.

I don't think the intention was to imply that NPCs would be categorically ignoring the 7-point merit cap, which is a core rule.

That said, I won't promise that the Dark Father* won't have more than 7 points in merits. Sometimes a BigBad needs to be very big, and very bad, and very terrifying.

*This example chosen at random and has nothing at all to do with actual, potential, current, or near-future plots.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Drum »

I'm not unfriendly to the idea that there may be exceptions, I just feel like *generally speaking*, all vampire characters should be following the same universal rules, including having bloodlines and unusual clans count as "special" and cost points appropriate to faction and/or region, as well as having a limit on the degree of "specialness" available to them. I just think that ideally, an NPC should be someone that a PC could reasonably convert/diablerize/grow to become, given five years or a thousand years or a lot of luck or whatever. And I get that staff might disagree with me there.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by MrMicromort »

Brisk note on numbers for clarification: If someone does not have to pay cost for bloodline rarity, they effectively DO transcend the 7 point merit cap, which was at the root of my original concern. They may still be restricted to 7 points, yes, but they effectively get 1-4 or whatever more than a PC of the same clan.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Alissia »

One question I have is, will you have to pay for both clan and bloodline merits or does one overide the other? Like say you are playing a rare clan, and select a bloodline that is also a merit will you have to play both costs or is the rare bloodline merit over-ride the rarity of the rare clan and only have to pay for the rare bloodline?

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by IssaiahFalatini »

As the someone who is playing a bloodline and rarer clan I can answer that one.

Your clan rarity is one cost (To play Assamite is a 2 point merit)
Your Blood-line is a second cost (Sorc being 4 points)
Total 6 merit points

Everyone should strongly consider if they want to be the "snowflake" as I have heard it mentioned; they are extremely expensive and severely limit your customization options in terms to your remaining points.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

Alissia wrote:One question I have is, will you have to pay for both clan and bloodline merits or does one overide the other? Like say you are playing a rare clan, and select a bloodline that is also a merit will you have to play both costs or is the rare bloodline merit over-ride the rarity of the rare clan and only have to pay for the rare bloodline?
In our document partly because we switched around the default bloodlines, the costs are combined. So, taking the assamite as the example: Vizier is listed as 2, sorcerer as 4, warrior as 6. Those are the total costs, and include both clan and bloodline.

That said, these are the PC costs.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by MikeLG »

My thought:

If the NPC is of the passing through variety, then sure, so long as the point cap is equal to their home domain's, then I'm fine with them spending point costs. An Assamite Sorcerer with Awaken the Steel, for example, would be fine if he's briefly int he domain. However, if the NPC is a long term resident, then his home domain is turning to this domain, and rarity merits should start to apply. Which pretty much boils down to using a different (but established) standard for rarity prices is fine, so long as they are not part of the usual domain residents/cast.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by IssaiahFalatini »

MikeLG wrote: Which pretty much boils down to using a different (but established) standard for rarity prices is fine, so long as they are not part of the usual domain residents/cast.
Agreeing with this; a long term NPC residing in the Bay should have the same limitations as PCs. Now the super-special temporary or out of domain NPCs can and in some cases should have various woogie things that enhance them depending on clan, affiliation, or geographical location.

referencing Ari's previous post:
Drum wrote:but I wish you wouldn't make them something the PCs can literally never hope to become in any far-flung future. That's an ambition killer for the long game.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

I'm going to present a thought experiment. I'm not saying this is something I've done or will do, it's just a couple examples of why NPCs have different rules.

----

Baali. Baali are not playable clans in any setting. This makes them, by default, a 6-point merit. Baali get Daimoinon, but their stock in trade is souls. Infernal Power is a 3-point merit anyone can get. Every proper Baali should have Infernal Power, but it isn't possible using PC rules.

Okay - so we allow the Baali to come from a "Baali setting", and not pay for rarity, so she's got her Infernal Power.

Now, how to convince people to sell me their souls? Well, I'm gonna need them to trust me. That means I need to establish credentials, make friends, and just generally lay low and play the long game. So, I make an Alt ID, come to town, pretend to be a good Cammie, and am just another background NPC you see every couple weeks. It will be six months or a year before I make ANY moves. In the meantime, I'm hanging out, pretending to be a Malk, making up oracular predictions to get on peoples good sides, and just generally keeping my head down.

Do I need to now be paying for my clan, since I'm "part of the local cast"? No, of course not. Because if I do that, I lose the Infernal Power merit, and the whole long game of giving the PCs an in-game way to get Infernal Power themselves (at the low, low price of one tasty soul) disappears.

----

How about a Sabbat Inflitrator? Call her a Tzmice, not even on a path. Initial build is on standard Sabbat costs, so I spend a couple points in merits - call it 1 for natural linguist, 1 for lore master. a two-merit character. I come to town with that so-vital Alt ID, and again, lay low for a good long time before attempting to betray you all, getting caught, being tried and convicted, and re-igniting the war with Santa Cruz from cold to hot.

Since I'm "part of the local cast" - do I need to drop my merits to pay for my clan? No. Because I'm a Sabbat NPC. My ROLE (from the story perspective) was to come here, get caught, and light the war.

---

Now - Faith, or Molly? Of course they're built on PC costs - they're Camarilla loyalists. They're not special snowflake clans, they don't have any secrets darker than yours. They have opinions and preferences and personal agendas. While each was built for a specific Plot Purpose, that purpose didn't require a special clan or path.

---

My point is - NPCs are here to further plot. They're here to tempt, to incite, to provoke. They have merits, but they also have flaws. They have exploitable weaknesses. They're designed to lose. Thank you for trusting us to do that.
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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by MrMicromort »

I said I was done debating this, but I can't keep my mouth shut on one particular issue here.

If you have to shred the logic of your setting in order to fit a mechanic in, it's not a good mechanic.

Sure, NPCs can follow different rules. I get that. Storytelling and all that. But if the rules NPCs follow are so fundamentally different than PC rules, you start impinging on your story rather than facilitating it. A setting has got to have some kind of logic or it breaks down.

Give NPCs neat merits we can't get? I can accept that.

Give NPCs gobs of XP? Sure, fine.

Give NPCs other crazy stuff? Okay.

Release NPCs from Merit costs for bloodline/clan?

As a player, if I take (say) a 4 pt bloodline merit, I'm stuck with 4 points that may not even give me anything at all other than what amounts to a LARP vanity pet. Those 4 points -never go away-. Maybe I get a 'cool' discipline access, but I also get a clan flaw and potentially a lot of social flak for being an outsider/weird clan/whatever. And weirdly, I'm the least talented of my clan because I live in the South Bay and not in Johannesburg or something.

How does this make any sense?

At least give bloodline/clan merit-ers a chance to buy that stuff off or something.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Rose »

The conversion is a chance to buy it off, isn't it?

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by IssaiahFalatini »

Ginger wrote:In our document partly because we switched around the default bloodlines, the costs are combined. So, taking the assamite as the example: Vizier is listed as 2, sorcerer as 4, warrior as 6. Those are the total costs, and include both clan and bloodline.

That said, these are the PC costs.
According to the document listed:
Vizier - 2-point
Warrior - 4-point
Sorc - 6-point

Only mentioning since if this is not correct the source needs updating.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by MattM »

IssaiahFalatini wrote:
Ginger wrote:In our document partly because we switched around the default bloodlines, the costs are combined. So, taking the assamite as the example: Vizier is listed as 2, sorcerer as 4, warrior as 6. Those are the total costs, and include both clan and bloodline.

That said, these are the PC costs.
According to the document listed:
Vizier - 2-point
Warrior - 4-point
Sorc - 6-point

Only mentioning since if this is not correct the source needs updating.
Noted: we're still making edits to the wiki. The numbers Ginger listed are the numbers we will be going with.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by MikeLG »

Regarding the examples given, mostly to give my thoughts:

Baali needing credentials: the alternate identity background has rules there, but it's a background, not a merit. But why must it be a Baali that just does the corruption on their own? Say it's an outside force that sends agents, such as cam clans that have been corrupted to do the long term attack. That allows for much more intrigue with a corrupted clanmate. Perhaps the NPC passes through every once in a while to keep in contact with its agents, but isn't part of the regular crew in the domain. Doing that would ensure that they're not a regular resident of the domain, yet still allowing their influences and agents to work. Plus, it allows multiple avenues to approach the situation, and creates more tension rather than "John Doe is a Baali, let's kill it and be done with it all." and more, "Jane Smith has been corrupted... It's likely John Doe, but there could be other agents."

The Tzmice example was designed explicitly to get caught, so I see no problem with paying the out of town points on there. The mention of having the alternate identity isn't fully necessary, as it's in the rules as a background and not as a merit.

At least, those two examples are there to show that they can work within the setting rules with only some bending and no need to break it. Looking at the main idea behind the plot and then working rules around it. The concern largely is yes, NPC's exist to make plot, but the rules as they are is something that should be applied to everyone equally. Yes, there's an allowable amount of bending it in a number of circumstances (Baali, Niktuku, and Sabbat NPC's for example), but in general, there's the expectation that in the end, if there is any question of how something could go on, rules can be pointed out as to why it's allowed. Having played a ventrue long enough, it leaves a papertrail that's safe to follow, and just knowing that it's working according to that trail matters a lot.

Now, for long term residents, I'm not saying this should apply to things like long term NPC's. Heck, look at Can Can, sure not a kindred example, but she has shown up incredibly rarely, but is also clearly in the domain. Thus, she's not part of that regular cast. But man, when she makes herself known she makes herself known. If she were in town every other week, well, that actually would kill half the fun of dealing with her, and kind of ruin the interesting part of dealing with her.

Really, the debate seems to be the concern of Rules over RP. Yes, the rarity merits means that as PC's, we will be able to field a wider variety of clans and options, but by making them merits and limiting them as such, when NPC's come in with the same clan, but much more merits due to the setting, it diminishes the uniqueness of that PC. Which means that if I come in with, say, a Lasombra Antitribu, for example, I could only have 3 points of Merits, whereas a Sabbat Lasombra will be able to outclass me considerably due to the merit cap.

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Re: NPCs and Rarity Merits (aka My rules are different)

Post by Ginger »

IssaiahFalatini wrote:
Ginger wrote:In our document partly because we switched around the default bloodlines, the costs are combined. So, taking the assamite as the example: Vizier is listed as 2, sorcerer as 4, warrior as 6. Those are the total costs, and include both clan and bloodline.

That said, these are the PC costs.
According to the document listed:
Vizier - 2-point
Warrior - 4-point
Sorc - 6-point

Only mentioning since if this is not correct the source needs updating.
The BAM Implementation Rules page is correct, my summary was wrong - nice catch!

(Thanks for having my back, Matt - sorry about that.)
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