Secret NPCs

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Ralph
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Secret NPCs

Post by Ralph »

At this point, many of you know that I have had a player who has secretly been an NPC. The feedback we've received has been both positive and negative. I thought it would be a good thing for the community at large to discuss.

The Chester character was never announced as an NPC (though I was careful to never call him a PC either) because people interact with PCs and NPCs very differently - and I wanted to see how the players would interact with him.

What do you think? Should all NPCs be announced? Why, or why not?
-Ralph
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Aoife
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Aoife »

Ooh, ooh! I actually have an opinion on a thing for once!

I am personally not terribly fond of secret NPC's. Mostly because we have a big enough game that I don't always interact with every single PC in a given night. I kind of like to know what plot is in the pipe, for no other reason than I get to then choose whether or not I chase it. And by not knowing who is an NPC, I don't know that.

It's not a thing that I'd kick up a huge fuss about, mind you. Just that if I were asked my preference I'd prefer to know who NPC's were from the outset.

- Samantha

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Drum
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Drum »

I like secret NPCs. I think it's nice to engage naturally with new people, without having the flashing PLOT arrow over their heads, and having secret NPCs from among the player population is one of the only reasonable ways to do that.

I don't really like to feel like there's some clear delineation where plot comes from staff and NPCs only and not from players--blending the two a bit seems like it could make for more impetus to engage with other PCs and create stories together, rather than waiting around looking for a fishhook to grab hold of.

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Ted
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Ted »

BAM has had secret NPCs for a while. I remember Glen played a Toreador antitribu infiltrator as a secret NPC in 2010 or so, and it went well. We were all surprised when he turned. (I was a PC at that point, and so was Ralph if I remember correctly. Lindsay was ST.)

I think the main things are:
1. It needs to happen carefully, and rarely. It's the sort of thing that shouldn't happen more than once or twice a year, planned beforehand, for a really good reason, with a lot of forethought.
2. It needs to be for plot reasons. The goal should be to get PCs to treat someone like a PC rather than a monster-of-the-week. I've seen times where someone approached Staff with an NPC concept because they wanted a character more powerful than the PC rules allow, and I think this is more problematic. NPCs shouldn't be super-PCs.
3. The NPC needs careful instructions. A secret NPC coming in should have a timeline of what they're there to do.
4. It should be temporary. The secret NPC should be there for a few months at most, and should be OOCly revealed as an NPC after the fact.
5. It should be as fair as possible. For instance, a secret NPC shouldn't get the New Player Merit. They shouldn't get plot written for them, but instead should be part of plots written for the PCs. Staff should avoid OOC lying about it. And so on.

STs do a lot of deceptive things. Believe me, we've got plenty of other lies and deceptions in the mix right now. This helps make a game surprising and exciting. But Staff needs to do this ethically and carefully, with the goal of making a more exciting game. I think having a secret NPC is legit, if applied very carefully.
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Capet »

My stance: "As little out of game deception as possible. Preferably none."

Never announcing him as a PC, but having him stand with the PCs at listen up.... that's extremely mild when it comes to out of game deception.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Melissa »

I much agree with Ted- they can totally work, if a secret NPC fits with the story, and they need to be rare.

I also think if there are secret NPCs, they shouldn't be related to a plot that will turn on the characters who went through the usual "you're new the domain, let's give you a hand" stuff. It should never discourage the positive metagaming habits that make it easier to bring in new character.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Drum »

100% what Alison just said. Secret NPCs designed to prey on the better instincts of players regarding new PCs would be absolutely terrible.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Aldona Piast »

In most situations I am totally ok with secret npcs. My one exception is in situations where we will often hand wave a bit of the Acknowldement process for some pcs to help get them into play. I don't think a secret npc should have a plot attatctched to it that involves punishment or consequences for lax security or research or whatever unless you're trying to change the hand waving behavior that happens with pcs. In which case, I would think a warning or talk about that first would be better before bringing in a secret npc to test it.


I realize this is a pretty specific situation for an objection case, but I have had several different sts in several different games pull this on me, or the game in general and on a gaming philosophy level no me gusta.

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Ted
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Ted »

Aldona Piast wrote:My one exception is in situations where we will often hand wave a bit of the Acknowldement process for some pcs to help get them into play.
Oh, yes. Yes indeed. Hand-waving some of the Acknowledgment to get PCs into play is just kind of basic decency so we don't kill off every new player.

Punishing PCs for that would be a great way to sabotage your own game. "Ha! You were decent and welcoming! Now you've learned your lesson and will never do so again! Ha-HA!"
Qerans Seadie (3BR). Creature - Zombie Shaman. 1BBB, T, Sacrifice a player: Put a +1/+1 counter on one of that land is trandor.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Melissa »

I have also encountered plots where that was a thing that happened. I mean, if I wanted to play a game based solely on paranoia, I'd play, well, Paranoia.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by MikeLG »

So, I remember a plot when a relatively new player was brought in, then suddenly was ambushed because the player playing the NPC just assumed that "Sabbat infiltrator" meant "When I get people alone, use that opportunity to capture them, stake them, then prepare to forcibly blood bond them/kill them." There wasn't really any major plot it was linked to, to my knowledge.

I pinged on a bunch of oddities in Chester, what he knew and what he could do, which made me think the options were that he was either a secret npc or subject to metagaming/favoritism. I think that at least knowing that secret NPC's were a possibility would have made the discomfort of me jumping to the latter two options.

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Brawns »

I dig secret npc. as well as not so secret npc
stacz

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Ralph
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Ralph »

Actually I was part of the Secret NPC that Glen played (Pierre Lamont). In fact I ended up playing the character when he set fire to the Rant House, as Glen had to bow out at the last minute. (And the Rant House library was never the same again!)

I absolutely agree that Secret NPCs should not be used against the hand-wavey policy we have toward new PCs. I promise that that is not something I would do or endorse.

As far as Chester goes, when he was introduced, I explicitly said he did NOT have the New Player merit. (which may have been a clue to some people.)

Since I've been on staff, we had a couple other secret NPCs - the ones that come to mind first are some of the elders that were here during the Conclave back in 2012. Most of the NPCs were announced, but some were not.
-Ralph
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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Aoife »

*frenzies over the Rant House library... again!*

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Re: Secret NPCs

Post by Vivian »

MikeLG wrote:So, I remember a plot when a relatively new player was brought in, then suddenly was ambushed because the player playing the NPC just assumed that "Sabbat infiltrator" meant "When I get people alone, use that opportunity to capture them, stake them, then prepare to forcibly blood bond them/kill them." There wasn't really any major plot it was linked to, to my knowledge.
I think I was the new player in this circumstance. This was my intro to secret NPCs!

With proper guidelines and a responsible staff, I am okay with them. Otherwise... nope nope nope nope nope.

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