Kids and LARPing

[Ginger]

BAM doesn't have an official, written policy about kids at game. We're going to need to address that, since our player base contains parents who will have childcare issues, and who have kids who will want to play.

And right there, it splits into two conversations:
Kids at game who are playing.
Kids at game who are not.

For this discussion, "kids" and "children" refers to that amorphous age where you're not comfortable talking about sex or torture with them or in front of them. That ages varies kid-to-kid and player-to-player.

As a player, I personally don't want kids at game - I come to game for grown-up time. I dislike having to have to alter my behavior due to the presence of children, players or not. I enjoy adult oriented plot and role-play; having kids at game breaks my immersion by inhibiting my language, actions, reactions. Even when it's been clearly and explicitly stated that it's okay to swear or graphically discuss torture, murder, sex, etc. in front of the kid, I'm simply less likely to do so.

As staff, I don't want the headache of dealing with player complaints, either for or against. A flat "no-one under 18" rule is super appealing to me because it prevents that headache while dovetailing nicely with my personal preferences.

As a parent, I think a flat over-18 rule is ridiculous, cause kids mature at different ages. (I don't want my kids to go to game until they're like 25, but that's because I'm crazy over-protective mom; besides, I've already been overruled on that one.)

I am of the opinion that you don't want your child exposed to adult language and adult content, your child should not come to game. BAM is rated R, and occasionally NC17. While I wouldn't object to being asked to curtail explicit sexual content (because I would respect the same request from a player), I strongly object to being asked to watch my language.

I think that kids should not be allowed to "shadow", unless they are with a parent who is also shadowing. Street LARP is not the sort of place where a kid can come along and sit in another room with a movie or video game. Really, I don't think we should permit kids who are not playing, period, but having an out-of-game parent mitigates that.

What say you, community?
How do you feel about it?
What are your thoughts, experiences, opinions, positive or negative?
At what age is a kid someone you're comfortable roleplaying with? Is it different if you're only playing in front of them, rather than interacting with them?

[Aoife]

I have kids.

I am a STRONG supporter of the "no one under 18" rule. Yes, kids mature at different ages. But I do not want to be responsible for exposing folks who are not yet legal adults to the kinds of things I talk about at game (except my own children who, you know, I parent).

Ideally (for me) there would be no kids even at game, not as shadows or anything. It's just not a child friendly space as far as I'm concerned (and honestly, that's part of why I like it).

- Samantha (who is kind of a hard ass, I realize)

[Capet]

I've been LARPing with under eighteen year olds for a good chunk of my 12 years playing vampire.

I met a lot of great role-players who all started gaming before 18, many who are now staples of the gaming community.

I only do NC-17 stuff around people I feel comfortable with anyways (or the adult lit section).
Playing around young-ins isn't so much different *to me* than being mindful that we are in a public space (which we already are).

That's my 2 cents.

-Paul

[MikeLG]

I've been to games where people have brought their kids and their kids clearly aren't interested in gaming. I've been when people have brought their kids who are all about it. In general, I'm with Ginger on it being rated R. The only difference of opinion I have is, if there is a child shadowing under someone who isn't their parent or guardian, that there should be written permission to do so from said parent/guardian.

[Zaage]

When I first started coming to BAM, the child playing was a pleasure to interact with, but I did alter my habits to be what I perceive as appropriate around minors around them.

I believe that LARP in general is a great thing for kids to be involved in, but that BAM and its themes are not the right setting for said kids. Whether the parent believes their child is able to handle BAM, it's just like Ginger says - people are going to behave differently regardless, and that's not something that allows for the idea tone of the game.

However, as we stand right now, I feel like there is a cut off that's slightly below 18. If we're saying BAM has an R rating, 17-year-olds aren't excluded. This is supported by the fact that our NC-17 ratings are typically on the boards, if anything, and that's within an area accounts have to be given permission to access. But allowing 17-year-olds does open the possibility of relationships that straddle the legal line and that's where I get caught up. In that sense, it's better overall to decide on one rating and say that we're NC-17, regardless of whether we are or aren't all the time. Otherwise, there will be arguments in the future.

In sum, there's lots of grey area. I don't like the idea of having kids at BAM, but I'm not against the idea of young adults, except that it opens the door for illegal situations. I think that a no-minors policy is probably the best option, even if some are capable of handling it.

[Melissa]

I don't think under-18s should be able to play without written, informed, and explicit parental consent. Not sure about needing a parent/designated guardian there, that depends on the legalities of the situation and local curfew laws. With parental consent, I'd put the minimum at fifteen or sixteen. At that point, they're capable of finding much more horrifying stuff on the internet. I think it should also be made known to all players who is underage. Players of all ages are allowed to moderate their exposure to explicit sexual content, so a blanket "no being explicit in front of the underage people" and "no getting involved romantically or sexually with their characters" is not too hard to do. Staff can work with the underage players to make sure their character concept is appropriate for this restriction.

Legally, no under-18s is easiest and simplest. But like Paul, there are a lot of players I know who started under 18 and are now really involved in the community.

Occasional childcare problems I think should be covered on a "don't do it if you can help it and deal with it yourself" basis. Life happens. However, they should deal with this without having the kid tag along and be bored or make other players uncomfortable. I can see ways to do this and still get some scenes in, but the player likely won't be hanging out in Elysium much. If you want to come, set your kid up on a nearby bench with an ipad or something, and do one on one or small scenes with people who know the kid is there, that's doable, I think.

I don't like the idea of actual kids being IG. I can see it working... but also really not working.

[Capet]

Oh sure, there should at least be contact information and previous conversation with the parents of under 18 year olds, if they are allowed to play.

[MorganS]

I started LARPing when I was 16, if there had been an 18 only rule I may never have come back to try again later. I am also friends with Destinee who started playing younger than 16. While I didn't have a ton of direct interaction with her, I didn't have any complaints (nor did I hear any) which indicated having her at game was an issue. We've also had one of Ginger's lovely daughters come to game to NPC, who most certainly was not 18. If there is going to be a hard rule about underage players I would say:

- 16+ is OK (perhaps with parent permission, though I certainly didn't have it when I started LARPing.)
- Under 16 requires a responsible adult to be at game and available by cell phone to the player at all times.

I have to think more about shadowing but I want to post this before I leave work.

[Marcella]

As a note I am talking about minors who wish to be players, I haven't considered the notion of tag alongs or shadows yet.

As someone who started LARPing at 15, and then moved int Vampire (Not BAM but a game with a similar genre and themes) at 16 I am staunchly against a blanket no negotiations 'no players under 18' rule. I do recognize that there are some games where these rules exist for the legality and comfort of the rest of the community, but as many have said there are teenagers who have grown up with this community and become an important part of it.

I can also speak to LARP being something that helped me get through some really unfortunate years between 15 and 18 and has also been a very positive influence on how I have grown up. I would not want to bar 'kids' from that experience if they are emotionally mature enough to handle things.

I would be far more amenable to a hard 'no one under the age of 16' with a need for case by case approval of staff and a meeting of at least one staff member and a parent or guardian of the minor in question for prospective players between the ages of 16 and 17.

[MorganS]

With respect to kids shadowing. Obviously I think 16+ should be able to shadow no questions asked. Frankly I would even say 13-15 is fine, as long as some responsible adult is actually shadowing with them the whole time. Parents should not come to play, but bring their too young to play kid to game as a form of backup babysitting. This is the ONLY time I've seen a younger person at game become an issue.

So if we're writing down my version of the 'rules':
- Play/shadow vampire LARP 16+, no questions asked
- Under 16? A parent or guardian must be present and either playing or shadowing with you. No parents playing, kids shadowing combo - it isn't usually fun for anyone involved

[Drum]

FWIW, Megan, I think that not hearing complaints is not the same as there not being any. I never want to be the jerk who's complaining about kids at game (and upsetting other parents), but I've *always* gone out of my way to avoid being around minors at LARP, especially Destinee and other particularly young folks. My experience--Destinee and Ava both included--is that quite apart from the tone and safety concerns, younger kids really aren't inclined to stay in character or RP much or even appear to be having much fun, and that they draw the people near them out of game likewise. Avoiding that can be tricky. Also, honestly, LARP is just about the only kid-free time I get, and it's also my only social vector most weeks. It definitely diminishes my fun to have kids at game.

That said, mine is not the only fun, and I can appreciate that there are minors in their mid-to-late teens who are enthusiastic about participating and might bring a lot to game. I think there are many LARPs that are perfectly appropriate for minors--the question is really whether BAM is a good choice.

I'm kind of mixed on how much tone is an issue for me. There are already adult players in the game with whom I watch tone and content, for their safety and comfort or for my own, and taking similar care around older kids shouldn't really be that different. I think the overall direction of plot and content really isn't so appropriate for most younger teens and some older ones. I guess I'd set the bar at 16, though it varies a ton from person to person--I definitely don't want to get into a situation where Staff is being called on to assess maturity or interview parents or anything like that.

Safety and liability are pretty significant to me, though. I'm very, very uncomfortable with the idea of anyone under 18 coming to BAM unaccompanied by a legal guardian, because I do not want players or Staff to be responsible for the safety of a minor. There are LARPs where that might work out ok, but over the whole of downtown, late at night, with the drunks abroad? NO. I am also really uncomfortable with sexual or romantic adult plot between minors and adult players, and I don't know that there's a reasonable way for Staff to oversee and prevent that, nor do I feel ok with just trusting everyone to self-police.

Ultimately, I think that I would be happiest with BAM having a cut-and-dried 18+ ruling, and maybe work with other parents and those who want to give younger gamers a shot to find or create other, more appropriate options.

If we do determine to permit younger folks, however, I feel strongly that they should have a parent or guardian onsite (in game, shadowing, or downtown and not drinking), that they should be clearly labeled (so no one "forgets" that they're underage), and that we should have some kind of rule in place to prevent minors going off one-on-one with anyone (and possibly rules in place to keep them from going off alone). I also feel that with minors at game, we'd need to ditch our three strikes policy and be zero tolerance for skeeze, violence, and other inappropriateness of any kind. None of that's really ideal, and I know it would leave some folks out in the cold, but it seems a lot better than the alternatives I can picture.

(Editing to add: I feel the same about shadowing as about playing. Minors at game are minors at game.)

[Aldona Piast]

I am of the opinion that anyone who comes to game should not shadow for more than three games before they are asked to make a character or leave - young or old. So, if a kid can't come up with a character and stay in character, than they shouldn't be at game - regardless of age.

That being said, I'm comfortable with 16 - 18 in theory... but in practice... well... see above comment.
When I was ST, I had to ask one young lady to stop coming until she was willing to stay in character because I think I only saw her role playing a handful of times and the rest of the time she was running around disrupting scenes. Like Ari said, sometimes people complaining and there being complaints are not the same because I didn't receive many complaints about the situation at all. Our group is very understanding when it comes to kids and will swallow down a lot rather than speak out against an enthusiastic young person.

Honestly, I would be fine with folk under 18 having a trial period to show that they can rp and stay in character. If they can't - bye thanks for trying. If they can, welcome to the lifestyle!

[Yorloff]

I have seen the vast drama of 15 year olds, and the degenerative affect it has on games.

I've doing this for... well, never mind that.

When I ran the Requiem game, we had a hard "16 and up", and minors needs to have a consent form on file, with address, phone number of parent, etc. We had to ban a player because we found that she faked her parent's signature and phone number.

I know that got lifted after I stepped down, and personally, I think it was a mistake. The rule was there for a reason.

I think, if we include 16 year olds, as well as having the contact info on file, it would be best for parents/legal guardian to come in and give us thumbs up/thumbs down, so we know for a fact we have some sort of adult supervision.

BAM is a significantly more mature game than many out there, so the problems are less in general. However, problems with legality and maturity are still going to exist.

[Constance]

Ari very articulately addressed by primary concerns in part of her post - liability and legal issues.

I played mature themed RPGs when I was teenager. I full acknowledge that some teenagers are very able to handle the themes that BAM covers.

What I don't want is for there to be any ambiguity that leads to any legal issues with minors.

[Ralph]

I have conflicted opinions on this topic, as I think is true for several of us.

I started LARPING when I was 15, and it has certainly become a life long obsession for me. LARPing was instrumental in my dealing with some things while I was a kid, and I strongly think it has helped keep me sane over my life.

That said, I also recognize that not all 15 year-olds are ready for LARP. In my case, I had been playing sit-down gaming since I was 7 or so.

I should also say that there are times I think that having kids can really add to the game. When I asked my daughter Ava to play the Malkavian Founder, people reacted to her VERY differently than if I asked, for example, Twoey to be an apparently 12 year old kid who is actually a Methuselah. The awkward horror and shock people had when she was revealed seemed to be pretty major.

I understand that there are legal concerns - and frankly I do not really understand what they are. Near as I can tell, BAM is not a legal entity in any way. It's not a corporation, it's not even really a club. BAM does not own anything, is not insured - nor provides insurance, and is basically just a collection of friends who get together in a park on a weekly basis. As such, I do not see the legal aspect as being any different than a kid being out with adult friends on a Friday night. Parent consent is still required in that case, as it would be for us.

I guess personally, I would like to see BAM as being generally 16+, with room for exceptions at Staff discretion - either for a single night or for a long term character.

[Ted]

I don't believe anyone here is a lawyer (and I'm definitely not), though a few people here have taken law classes. As far as I understand the law of this, basically if a minor is at game and their guardians decide to press charges, anyone could be liable, but if they don't press charges (or if they sign a consent form and we're not reckless) we're probably okay. Being a corporation actually increases protection for these things; it doesn't make us more liable. (Specifically, it would mean that any attempt to sue for damages would have an extra roadblock if trying to go after individual assets.) The fact that we don't charge for game is the thing that's more likely to provide protection. But I don't think we should become a corporation anyway. It's annoying and expensive and there's little benefit.

Anyway, the important bit about all that legal stuff is, I think we always need written parental consent for anyone under 18.

Personally, I don't have a problem with players of any age if they're not disruptive and if they're participating in the game. I'd want to look at individual cases to determine that, and to say that Staff has a right to decline any player under 18 without any further explanation (either due to Staff concerns or player complaints).

I really like Lindsay's idea of limited how much someone (of any age) can shadow without playing, and three games seems like the right number. If we declared "no one can shadow more than three times", and we counted someone spending most of the time at game out-of-character as shadowing, I think that'd do the job. (Waiting elsewhere while someone games wouldn't be shadowing -- like taking a nap in your car because you have a headache or whatever.)

I guess that's two separate proposals: one about minors as players (I'm for "under 18 with parental consent and subject to Staff review") and one about shadowing (I'm for "three games shadowing at most, and if you're constantly OOC you're effectively shadowing").

[Drum]

I guess maybe I should clarify that my concerns about safety and liability are only partly to do with legal repercussions should anything bad happen. Mostly, I am speaking to the burden of responsible and safe behavior I would, as a parent, want to see from a bunch of folks in their 20s, 30s, and 40s with whom my minor kid hangs out in my absence, *especially* given the physical setting and subject matter involved. This is a much bigger thing to me than my preferences as a player.

[Aoife]

I guess maybe I should clarify that my concerns about safety and liability are only partly to do with legal repercussions should anything bad happen. Mostly, I am speaking to the burden of responsible and safe behavior I would, as a parent, want to see from a bunch of folks in their 20s, 30s, and 40s with whom my minor kid hangs out in my absence, *especially* given the physical setting and subject matter involved. This is a much bigger thing to me than my preferences as a player.

Yes, this. Putting this in quotes for so many reasons.

I get that several folks in our game started their LARPing journey early in life. I can appreciate that it was helpful and fun and safe for you. However, I'm seeing this whole discussion through the lens of having a nearly 14 year old of my own and I can assure you that I do not want him LARPing with over 18's now, or even in two years.

[Rose]

LARPing has many benefits that I can see, and I think teenagers should absolutely be exposed to it. There are LARPs that would be a great start for children/teens, but a game that goes into the topics that ours does, and is the time and place ours is, might not be that place. This is especially true for the younger range.

I like the suggestion of 18 and over with a staff approval for younger. I also like adding the 3 time shadow rule. This allows for some flexibility, while still having a line.